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Are GWE and GWL (Gardner Watts) related?
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 @ 00:04:53 UTC by rob
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Anonymous writes: "What do we make of Gardner Watts?"
Cervantes said it best four hundred years ago... the translation being something like, "I begin to smell a rat"....
From the website: "Gardner Watts' HEC Process uses... conditions which allow the cell to operate at a much lower than normal 'decomposition voltage'...
In small scale independent bench tests by a University this factor was measured at times 29."
OK... if you don't see the problem there (as well as many other totally irrational claims made on the Gardner Watts website write-up) then open your wallet, as little I can say will help. Yes, it is true that Faradaic limitations can arguably be breached at higher voltages (plasma conditions) or at higher temperatures... and even at STP, they can be breached somewhat ... but whoa...not by a factor of 29 times... no way. This definitely smacks of a similar con-game which was attempted by a pseudo-company last year (curiously with a similar sounding name): GWE... now facing criminal indictment for securities fraud, thanks to the
quick response of forums like this (and the tireless effort of John Lichtenstein):
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/FreeEnergy/Directory/Hydrogen/Genesis/fraud/NJ_attorneygeneral/PR031209.htm
My suspicion is that the two outfits GWE and GWL are related.
For those interested in really important water-splitting research, see the new paper by Mizuno on the LENR-CANR website:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTconfirmatib.pdf
Mizuno, T., T. Akimoto, and T. Ohmori.
"Confirmation of anomalous hydrogen generation by plasma electrolysis." in 4th Meeting of Japan CF Research Society. 2003. Iwate, Japan: Iwate University.
This paper has many implications indicating that "excess heat" may not always be related (technically) to any kind of LENR at all, at least as that is usually defined, but may be "supra-chemical"... but then again, perhaps the evolving
definition of CANR could be broadened to include higher energy reactions in which the nucleus of any reactant is not altered permanently (permanently being the key word) ...
Jones Beene
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Re: Are GWE and GWL (Gardner Watts) related? (Score: 1)
by Technophile on Friday, January 16, 2004 @ 08:18:59 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) | There's not much new or even mysterious about the HEC cell. One of the earliest hydrogen production methods used, back when they were first experimenting with it, was to run steam over hot iron filings. The result: rust and hydrogen. The HEC is the same process run in a cell. This can't be overall efficient, however, as it will take more energy to turn the rust back into iron than you get in the rusting process.
The TEC, however is interesting. As you point out in your post, several credible scientists around the world are reporting excess heat and hydrogen from water plasmas. |
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Re: Are GWE and GWL (Gardner Watts) related? (Score: 1)
by ElectroDynaCat on Friday, January 16, 2004 @ 09:24:34 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) | There will be a continuing question on the energy balance of any electrolysis setup for the simple reason that in electrolysis does extract energy from the environment and that energy will appear during recombination as excess heat. Water electrolysis will produce 14 % per mole more energy when the hydrogen is combusted than it took to split the mole.
Before everyone runs out to try to power their car with electrolysis a further analysis needs to be undertaken to show where that energy came from and how it can be accounted for under the rules of thermodynamics .
Because electrolysis involves a phase change from a liquid to a gas there is a great change in the entropy of the hydrogen atom from a liquid to gas. This entropy change is allowed to absorb ambient energy at a constant temperature. A good example of this behavior is the boiling of water, where water is heated the temperature increases until 212 degrees F and further temperature increases stop until the water turns entirely to water vapor. If water is placed in a vacuum the water will boil, absorbing heat at room temperature in fact the liquid will actually cool and can be used for refrigeration( this is whats called steam ejector refrigeration). There are no new principles involved here, just some thermodynamic slight of hand trading entropy for heat, which has been confusing even the technically adept for a long time.
A big question that will be asked is, if it would be possible to reconvert that extra 14% per mole of energy and recycle it back into the electrolysis process could we in fact electrolyse water for free?
The first technical obstacle would be to find some process so efficient in converting heat back into electricity that there would be an excess of energy left over for electrolysis. Recycling this energy back into electrolysis of hydrogen would create ever increasing amounts of hydrogen, until all the oceans of the world dry up. In fact this is possible, but the energy would come not from the vacuum, but from the Sun, because ambient room temperature is maintained by solar radiation. The most amazing part of this is not that we would not see a cooling of the Earth as all the water was used up but that the Earth and the Sun would begin to reach a common temperature according to the Second Law. When that common temperature was reached , which would be much hotter than the earth is today, no more energy could be transferred from Sun to Earth and all transfers of heat would stop.
It is hoped that this exposition will end some of the confusion about energy balances in electrolysis. |
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GWE and GWL are unrelated (Score: 1)
by chipotle_pickle on Saturday, January 17, 2004 @ 03:49:16 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) http://freehydrogen.blogspot.com | Hi JB.
You are right that the confidence man behind GWE likes to name scams that sound like reputable things. UFCT sounds like UTC, Genesis ... is supposed to sound like the New Jersey Genesis and the Genesis Project. But why would he name anything to sound like a previously exposed scam? Nobody is ever going to want to name anything to sound like GWE.
Also, look at the description of the technology. The Gardner explanation is a brief reference to burning iron. There is no excess heat, they are just burning iron. Is there something wrong with it? It would take a CRC to check. I assume that it's allright. The GWE tech description is a complete evasion.
And who is Gardner Watts anyway? Hmm. Can't tell. You have me there JB. Still, I suspect that it would be possible to contact them. The GWE folks, even once you find them, don't answer email.
(I might have finally found a line on the GWE folks. Someone other than an investor or a contractor who knows Kelly. Of course, NJ is gathering info like I never could. But still, I would like to see if there is some way that people close to the guy behind the GWE con can convince him to give his investors' money back.) |
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