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Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”?
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 @ 20:32:07 UTC by vlad

Science The fellas at CERN have gone to great lengths to reassure us all that they won’t destroy the planet (who says physicists are cold hearted?).

The worry was that the collision of particles at the LHC’s high energies could create a black hole that would swallow the planet. We appear to be safe on that score but it turns out there’s another way in which some people think the LHC could cause a major explosion.



The worry this time is about Bose Einstein Condensates, lumps of matter so cold that their constituents occupy the lowest possible quantum state.

Physicists have been fiddling with BECs since the early 1990s and have become quite good at manipulating them with magnetic fields.

One thing they’ve found is that it is possible to switch the force between atoms in certain kinds of BECs from positive to negative and back using a magnetic field, a phenomenon known as a Feschbach resonance.

But get this: in 2001, Elizabeth Donley and buddies at JILA in Boulder, Colorado, caused a BEC to explode by switching the forces like. These explosions have since become known as Bose supernovas.

Nobody is exactly sure how these explosions proceed which is a tad worrying for the following reason: some clever clogs has pointed out that superfluid helium is a BEC and that the LHC is swimming in 700,000 litres of the stuff. Not only that but the entire thing is bathed in some of the most powerful magnetic fields on the planet.

So is the LHC a timebomb waiting to go off? Not according to Malcolm Fairbairn and Bob McElrath at CERN who have filled the back of a few envelopes in calculating that we’re still safe. To be doubly sure, they also checked that no other superfluid helium facilities have mysteriously blown themselves to kingdom come.

“We conclude that that there is no physics whatsoever which suggests that Helium could undergo
any kind of unforeseen catastrophic explosion,” they say.

That’s comforting and impressive. Ruling out foreseen catastrophies is certainly useful but the ability to rule out unforeseen ones is truly amazing.

Ref: arxiv.org/abs/0809.4004: There is no Explosion Risk Associated with Superfluid Helium in the LHC Cooling System

Source: http://arxivblog.com/?p=645


 
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"Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”?" | Login/Create an Account | 9 comments | Search Discussion
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The 'Magnificent 7' of European astroparticle physics unveiled to the world (Score: 1)
by vlad on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 @ 22:33:29 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.zpenergy.com
Today Europeans presented to the world their strategy for the future of astroparticle physics. What is dark matter? What is the origin of cosmic rays? What is the role of violent cosmic processes? Can we detect gravitational waves?

With seven types of major large-scale projects physicists want to find the answers to some of the most exciting questions about the Universe:

-- CTA, a large array of Cherenkov Telescopes for detection of cosmic high-energy gamma rays
-- KM3NeT, a cubic kilometre-scale neutrino telescope in the Mediterranean Sea
-- Ton-scale detectors for dark matter searches
-- A ton-scale detector for the determination of the fundamental nature and mass of neutrinos
-- A Megaton-scale detector for proton decay's search, neutrino astrophysics & investigation of neutrino properties
-- A large array for the detection of charged cosmic rays
-- A third-generation underground gravitational antenna

"New exciting discoveries lie ahead; it is up to us to take the lead on them in the next decade." says Christian Spiering from DESY – Germany, Chairman of the Roadmap Committee. After two years of roadmap process, the publication of The European Strategy for Astroparticle Physics is an important step for the field outlining a leading role for Europe in this increasingly globalised endeavour.

From undersea and underground laboratories to the most isolated deserts and outer space, astroparticle physics experiments accept very exciting challenges. It is a promising and rapidly growing field of research at the intersection of particle physics, cosmology and astrophysics, aiming to detect the most elusive particles, and to penetrate the most intimate secrets of the Universe.

To insure the coordination of astroparticle physics at the European level, research agencies from 13 countries joined their efforts within the ASPERA* European network, an ERA-Net funded by the European Commission. Thanks to the work achieved through ASPERA, European countries for the first time have a common tool to programme jointly and share their efforts in astroparticle physics.

This ambitious programme will gather European countries to open new exciting windows to the Universe, and the most advanced projects such as CTA (high-energy gamma rays) and KM3NeT (high-energy neutrinos) could start construction by 2012. The complete funding of this billion-scale programme would need a smooth yearly increase of current investments for astroparticle physics, amounting to an integrated increase of about 50% in a ten-year period.

"The timely realization of the Magnificent Seven is a big challenge" says the coordinator of ASPERA Prof. Stavros Katsanevas (IN2P3/CNRS) - France, "But we are confident that none will be killed contrary to what happens in the film, as the European agencies and ApPEC* support these priorities and the same also emerge in other continents. It is important that we coordinate and share costs not only inside Europe but on a global scale."

This is why beyond Europe, ASPERA welcomes on 29 and 30 September 2008 200 scientists and officials of funding agencies from all over the world, in view of international collaboration.

European astroparticle physicists also affirmed their support to Earth- and space-based missions to explore the phenomenon of "dark energy", to the concept of a cooperative network of deep underground laboratories, and to a common call for innovative technologies [www.physorg.com] in the field of astroparticle physics. In addition, they declared their wish to see the formation of a European Centre for Astroparticle Physics Theory.

Source: CERN
Via: http://www.physorg.com/news141887529.html



Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by malc on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 @ 00:41:26 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) http://web.ukonline.co.uk/mripley
What is it with this obsession about CERN destroying the planet.  In fact every time some physics experiment comes along looking into the heart of matter we get stories about the end of the world.

Is there some weird sexual high from writing about the end of the world? It seems that way!

Let me have a go : Experiments looking at reversing the Casimir effect could indavertantly affect the nuclear forces within atoms and reverse them. This would then cause all matter to fall apart and the universe destroyed. An unreality effect. Whew wow that feels good ;-)

No doubt that scientists will say "We conclude that there is no physics whatsovere which suggets an ubnreality effect". That's comforting and impressive.

My apologies to the writers of Doctor Who in using the line about an unreality bomb to highlight the stuipidity of the comment at the end of the above article.



Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by nanotech on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 @ 07:04:53 UTC
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Well lets think about this, Malc and all: Yes first of all forget all the fearfulness about destroying the Earth with advanced physics. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN, PERIOD.

What are some useful applications of using the Casimir Force to reverse the nuclear repulsion? Could that lead to new forms of fusion and ways to dematerialize and even materialize matter?



]


Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by TechsArcana on Wednesday, October 01, 2008 @ 11:18:51 UTC
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Malc,

It's not just CERN. People have been predicting the end of the world since ... well, since the world began.

In the long, long ago, in the before times, various tribes worried that the sun might not rise tomorrow. The sun god must be appeased daily. When is was shown that the sun would rise no matter what sacrifices were (or weren't) made, the fear switched to the winter solstice. Fast-forward to the mid 1700's and the little ice age, the fear was that mankind would out-strip his ability to grow food. Malthus and his ilk have been proved wrong at every turn.

Most of these fears center on 4 main types of disasters:
  1. Some required resource will run out.
    • Available game
    • Fertility in the soil
    • Oil (whale or rock)
    • Water
  2. We will drown in waste.
    • Horse manure
    • PCBs
    • Dioxin
    • EM radiation from power lines (or cell phones)
    • Nuclear ash
    • Carbon Dioxide
  3. Some natural catastrophe
    • Sun won't rise
    • Sun won't return after solstice
    • World-wide Flood
    • Raganarok (universal freeze of norse mythology)
    • Global warming
    • Plagues (bird flu, black death, HIV)
    • Asteroid impact.
    • Planatary (or galactic) alignment causing earthquake.
  4. People playing with forces they don't understand will destory us all
    • Witchcraft
    • Kids with matches will ignite the whole world.
    • Genetic engineering
    • Atmospheric ignition by nuclear bomb.
    • CERN (black holes, bose supernova, stranglet conversion)
    • Hedge funds, mortgage melt-down, credit crunch.
This isn't to say that we don't face real threats and dangers, only that they are not the world ending catastrophes that the popular press (and the powers that be) would make them out to be. (often for the cynical purposes of controlling others) When things are shown to be a real problem (DDT, Thalidomide) their use is discontinued until proper dosing or other work-arounds can be determined. The truly big problems (asteroids for example) may wipe out mankind (and several other species) but will not wipe out all life.

Usually one or more of these disasters are linked to the action or actions of some group of undesirable "sinners" (not just talking religion here.) So the Sun failing to return is linked to those not making the proper sacrifices at the temple, or global warming caused by driving those really big expensive cars. Jealousy is often a driving force, as is the human desire to make others live their life our way.

This is all despite the common-sense evidence to the contrary:
  • The sun rose and fell for generations before the temple was ever built.
  • Global CO2 levels LAG temperature by hundreds of years.
  • The time span of mini black holes is so short it could not fall a millimeter, much less sink to the center of the earth before it evaporates. (not sure what the bose supernova's reason is for being impossible, but there is such a reason)
  • Cosmic ray events happen all the time that exceed the LHC's energy range by orders of magnitude, but no blackholes, bose supernovas, or strangelet conversion events have happened yet.
  • Someone is always immune to the plague or else it is so virulent that it burns out before it can spread too far. (think ebola)
  • Once a resource becomes scarce, people will switch to something else.
  • Natural disasters can be planned for and prepared for.
  • Even the conservative / libertarian "disaster" of too much taxation and regulation has a natural counter-agent -- black markets and underground economies.
Also, people tend to ignore the very real benfits of the technology when doing their cost accounting, and only focus on the negative. CFCs might cause ozone depletion, (but not as bad as was trumped up) but they also save millions from starvation by making our food last longer. DDT might harm birds when used indiscriminately in high doses, but used in a targetted fashion in low doses, it prevents malaria. How many millions of lives have been extended untold years due to electircal power grids (and the PCBs in the transformers out side every house) versus how many have gotten a weird cancer at the end of their lives. Sure, some will die from caMRSA, but millions more have been saved by those very same antibiotics (only to die from some weird cancer many years later in life due to UV radiation from a depleted ozone layer ;)

In short, don't worry. Or, if you must worry, at least use it as a motivation to think of a way to deal with the emergency and then get on with your life.


]


Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by malc on Thursday, October 02, 2008 @ 00:28:09 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) http://web.ukonline.co.uk/mripley
Global CO2 levels lag temperature becasue natural CO2 levels are a feedback mechanism and some other natural mechanism triggered the warming.  Man, on the other hand, is releasing the CO2 locked up by millions of years of natural processes and re-releasing it (if that's not a blindingly obvious dumb move I don't know what is!). Man released CO2 is a trigger.

Please do not confuse a trigger mechanism with a feedback mechanism.  Some do and fall for the skeptics argument which shows their ignorance about global warming mechanisms.

Oh and I'm not worried about doomsayers on a personal note but with the internet it is all too easy for these deluded fools who used to stand on street corners to get an audience of millions via the internet.....with enough of those millions listening!  That can have consequences.


]


Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by TechsArcana on Thursday, October 02, 2008 @ 20:56:04 UTC
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Malc,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Please believe me when I say I mean no disrespect, sarcasm, political baiting, or other word games in this post. I am not just parroting the skeptics arguments; I am interested in a serious discussion as I believe you are.

However, I do have some questions:

1) The papers that I have seen on the subject suggest that the CO2 lag is on the order of 400 years, meaning that current natural CO2 increases would be ultimately caused by carbon fixed (and just now doing it's final decay process into CO2) during that last climate optimum. (around 1600)

Given that, how can one possibly differentiate the man-made CO2 increase (mostly from exponential economic growth post WWII) from the natural feedback CO2 increases? Are you aware of any isotope studies that might shed light on this? I'm just curious if perhaps coal and oil related CO2 might have a different carbon isotope ratio from (relatively) recent decay related CO2?

2) If CO2 is a major direct causitive factor of global warming, then how can one explain the observed global cooling from 1940 to 1970 (during a time when CO2 from all sources was increasing?)

3) Greenhouse effects in our atmosphere are a reality. Research I have seen suggests that over all gasses (CO2, methane, water vapor, etc.) it accounts for an almost 60 degree increase in what our planet's temperature would be without it.

If CO2 increased from 285 ppm prior to industrial revolution to 385 ppm currently (an increase of nearly 1/3) why didn't the temperature increase 20 degrees in response?

Sincerely,

Techs Arcana


]


Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by TechsArcana on Thursday, October 02, 2008 @ 21:23:05 UTC
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Just because Helium is in the liquid state, (below 4 degees kelvin) that doesn't make it a Bose-Einstein condensate, or even a superfluid. The temperature has to be within a fraction of a degree of absolute zero for a BEC (under 2 Kelvin for a superfluid) and 3He behaves differently than 4He.

Even if the Bosenova [en.wikipedia.org] did occur, the amount of energy is very small (as one would expect for a tiny amount of very cold Helium)

This is just more grasping at straws to support the claim that technology is evil.






Re: Forget black holes, could the LHC trigger a “Bose supernova”? (Score: 1)
by nanotech on Friday, October 03, 2008 @ 05:03:56 UTC
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So how do we make a ROOM TEMPERATURE BOSE EINSTEIN condensate?

What uses would it have? Matter lasers?



]


Black holes from the LHC could survive for minutes (Score: 1)
by vlad on Saturday, January 24, 2009 @ 20:05:38 UTC
(User Info | Send a Message) http://www.zpenergy.com

There is absolutely, positively, definitely no chance of the LHC destroying the planet when it eventually switches on some time later this year.  Right?

Err, yep. And yet a few niggling doubts are persuading some scientists to run through their figures again. And the new calculations are throwing up some surprises.

One potential method of destruction is that the LHC will create tiny black holes that could swallow everything in their path including the planet. In 2002, Roberto Casadio at the Universita di Bologna in Italy and a few pals reassured the world that this was not possible because the black holes would decay before they got the chance to do any damage.

Now they’re not so sure.  The question is not simply how quickly a mini-black hole decays but whether this decay always outpaces any growth...

More: http://arxivblog.com/?p=1136 [arxivblog.com]




 

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